System recommendation theory?, Couldn't think of a better title

I skimmed years of responses on audiogon to an interesting question about what to buy if you wanted to get into the audiophile game from scratch with a set budget. I'm not so interested in what particular brands or models or anything one might recommend but rather more interested in the ratio of spending: speakers/gear

It was tough to garner much consensus from that audiogon thread as again, it was years old, and most of the responses tended to have very specific recommendations that have probably changed with time but it was definitely enough to realize there are at least two very different schools of thought on this, the pro-speaker and the pro-gear as a priority. Anyway I thought I would post here and see what you guys thought (sorry if I missed an older thread somewhere on the same topic!)

Basically if you had a conservative budget to deal with, say US$4000, and you needed to buy a complete, full range two channel system for high quality music reproduction how would you spend it, in general? Half on speakers, half on gear? Some say the speakers are the only part of a system that you actually hear so those should be the priority... others argue "garbage in, garbage out" and say that the gear should come first and then buy speakers with what's left. What's your thoughts?

I realize that changing the budget constraints can have a big impact on this "ratio" too. Certainly if I had only $1000 to spend most of it would probably go towards speakers with the thought of upgrading when possible down the road but I'm not sure...

i am of the speaker first point of view. buying the most speaker you can get gives you the ability to upgrade the other components over time, piece by piece. going source first will limit your sound to whatever the speakers will deliver, while going speaker first will give you the best sound that your source components can deliver. the latter translates to the best sound for your money over the course of your system evolution. the caveat is that you have to know ahead of time that you have the right speaker.

I'm obviously of this school of thought too but then again discovering what is the right speaker is half the fun, right?

definitely.

either way can get you where you want to be as long as you make well informed decisions. doing that requires at least some self-education which i find the best way of achieving is to listen to as many different components and systems as possible.

From hanging out with my tech and talking audio, I've learned that all components in your system from the source, to the preamp, to the amp, and finally, the speakers have varying degrees of reproduction ability. All are equally important because each component accepts an input and then outputs the signal. So a poor performing piece can cause a cascade effect with each subsequent piece passing along a poor signal. Speakers are critical as noted above but IMO, great speakers will not unscrew a poorly reproduced signal.

A simple example is as follows. My tech used to be a circuit designer for Onkyo and he designed the amp sections of some of the classic TX receivers. He knew from internal testing that the preamp in the TX-8500 was dull. One afternoon at the shop, he demonstrated the goodness of the amp section by taking the preamp out of the signal path. The improvement was nothing short of miraculous. He was right, this showed the preamp to be dull and ponderous.

In short, eveything needs to be optimized to deliver great sound.

You are all wrong, I am of the theory that you sit on your cash until that sweet deal comes along then you buy whatever it is that is the sweet deal. It has taken me 3 and a half years to piece my system together.

After I upgraded the speakers I realized I needed something to drive them and vintage was affordable, then I slowly kept changing and swapping when a great deal came along and I have got fairly good synergy,

btw I did start with speakers, and I am kidding about you all being wrong.

elroy

Sorry, but i don't concur with the speaker's first. What's the use of a good set of speakers if all you can here is "noise" and distortion from a poor source, or a bad amp? Imo, the secret of a good audio system lies in equilibrium and synergy between components. I'd listen to a lot of systems - expensive setups - with dull sound, compared to some others costing a lot less.
In resume i concur with Sam. The sum of the parts is the final result for a good and harmonic audio setup.

I'm of the synergy mind myself. A fixed ratio of speakers/gear can't be relied on, but everything taken as a whole has to play nicely with each other. Components of a certain level of quality (price?) sound better, IMHO. Inexpensive components go well with each other, and $$$ components go well with each other. Putting truly great speakers with less-than-stellar gear is just one place where a system can fall down. I've done that my own self.

This post has been edited by OvenMaster on March 02, 2009 04:27 pm

I think there are too many variables for one pat answer. For someone who is just dipping their toe in the pool, I think they need to do a little research and find what they "hear" the most.

When I bought my Sansui AU719, TU717, SE7, SC1330, and Dual 1215 TT in 1980, I had looked at a lot of units and decided this is what I wanted - for both the sound and looks. Not a true "audiophile", I opted to skimp (pricewise) on speakers, and bought a not-so-popular brand. They were Canon 1215Ts, and I personally liked them. They were just under $500 for the pair, which was about 20% of the total cost. I have since changed speakers, but left the original source as it was. Had I bought the pricier speakers at the time I might have had to cut back on the Sansui. To me, that might have been a mistake.

I also believe that some speakers can make a "good" source sound bad. Case in point: When I got the speakers in my "forklift" system (EV Dominators), I bought a Sony BPC amp and tuner at a garage sale for $20 just to try the speakers out. It's still doing duty in the warehouse. About 6 months ago, I stumbled across a Pioneer SX737, so I gave it a cleaning and put it in place of the Sony. I KNOW the 737 is twice the amp. Well, I tried to listen to it for a few days, and ended up not even turning it on. It sounded like @$$ to me, so I put the Sony back in. My son says the Pioneer sounds better, but I don't like it. And, I've had the EVs hooked up to the Sansui, and it sounds great.

I think I would rather have the good system and take a chance of finding better speakers down the road. My $400 Cornwalls really make the Sansui sound sweet.

That's just as clear as mud, isn't it?

Systems are like hearing what sounds good to one won't the other. trash in you get trash out. You wouldn't hook a Soundesign up to a pair of 2000.00 speakers nor the other way around. You start with a base then build. If you can always test drive. Some people have as much in their systems as a car. I spend more time in my sound room than my car. So if it doesn't sound good it is gone.

Synergy can be two great pieces or two terrible pieces combining to make a greater good. Not much more has to be said about great pieces but two aweful pieces sounding great together interests me more. This brings me to the Pioneer HPM-100 and the SX-1980. The HPM-100 has a well known mountain above 3 kHz resulting in bright sound. The SX-1980 is dull and ponderous but guess what, the HPM-100 compensates to make a half decent sound.

I think we are all basically saying the same thing about making systems but perhaps we are differing on timing and budget. The OP mentioned a budget implying a one time buy in which case trade-offs are a possibility. The piece-meal approach or opportunistic approach means that great pieces are acquired one at a time but in the interim, compromises are made. Most of us are willing to trade up so it is a matter of time before the main system takes shape.

My main system is constantly evolving. For example, in the past year I have switched preamps twice, amps twice, CDP's at least two times, and I just added a DAC. Now, I am close to dumping SS altogether. Speakers have stayed the same.

This post has been edited by socal sam on March 02, 2009 08:11 pm

I'll ring in that matching components together, proper set-up - either with a SLM or experienced ear, and further use of automatic room calibration can make a no-so-exceptional system sound very good. The results can be almost as profound as tuning a car with the help of computers, a dyno and a great tech.

If I wanted pecentages in a $4,000.00 budget, I'd pretend first that I had enough to buy my dream system new. Put together say 3-5 systems. Go all the way with Class A recommended gear. That will provide a total and price on separates just to get "brand new system" numbers and percentages up front. I would most carefully include any outlyers that are outragously expensive, especially to audiophile reviewers.

I might take a few moments and look at Audiogon's lists of separates for sale. The average selling price is listed, too. I'd build 3-5 systems of used components. Average the price of source players, pre's and pre-pros, amps, ingetrated amps, and speakers. This will provide some pre-owned figures and percentages.

Once you have the averaged numbers, you can see, somewhat accurately, the average total outlay and percentages in each component specialty that some buyers are purchasing in both new and used audiophile systems.

Surprisingly, a true audiophile music system can be assembled at a good price. Price is really incidental to component matching. It's happenchance.

I have eliminated true video switching out of my audio system. I run composet video from my players ot my Proceed AVP2 +6 only for on-screen programming.

The best HDMI and component video outputs from my players are connected directly to my Sony display monitor. I get the best display resolution without the video load on my main audio processor, and without the load on my wallet.

For room correction, I simply connect all speaker leads to my Yamaha reciever with room correction and carefuuly apply figures to my AVP2 's set-up menu.

You may run a forum question here or on Audiogon, etc. like:

What's the best audiophile, component-matched system for 3K? 4K? A perfectly matched integrated tube amp with the right speakers alone can probably be bought for under $2,000. Add a nice player, tuner...you can easily do it for 4K max and probably have change remaining in your pocket.

$4K can sound great. I know of a 2 watt integrated tube amp (one watt per channel) that when matched with a pair of Klipsch RF-7's (sensitivity is 102 dB at 1 watt at one meter) will produce over 100 dB with a 2 watt amp. That integrated amp can be bought around 500-700 bucks. The RF-7's - maybe 1,000.00. That's pure two-channel without a sub.

Long post but I want to hear somebody thinking when they spend my money.

OK, let's put a dollar firgure to theory. Some pre-qualification is in order. I've heard dozens of amps, receivers, speakers, etc. and these models are the most optimal for price/performance. There is a ton of great stuff out there and this is what I've found so far...

I've been fortunate enough to see expensive and cheap amps on the scope undergoing a square wave reporduction test. By far the best cost/performance amp are the HK 825 monoblocks. The traces are near perfect and a pair can be had for around $250. Other notably good amps are the AU-717 ($150-200) and the PC2002M ($250). What these amps have in common is good rise and decay with no overshooting. In a true blind test, these amps will scare a lot of very expensive stuff.

My personal favorites are the Yamaha NS-200M and the NS-1000M. The 200M at $250 features titanium mid and tweeter with cast basket woofers. The NS-1000M at around $750 represents a great value considering the use of Beryllium drivers. This material is specified in high-end Focal and Sonance models which in the case of the Focal Grand Utopia can cost well into five figures. Any combination of the three amps and two speakers will sound exceptionally good. Of particular note are the 717/200M ($500) and PC2002M/1000M ($1,000) combos.

I've seen a few preamps on the scope, enough to know that preamps can muck up a signal with murkiness. Unfortunately, I have not found a low cost model that I find acceptably fast. However, I am sure there are low cost gems out there in the $200 range. I've seen a Classe preamp which performed well but costs about $1,000 so I'll have to go with that for now. Obviously with the 717, you don't need this. Add in a decent turntable for $250 and CDP/DAC combo for another $250.

So, according to my math, you can have a great sounding system for as little as $1,000 or as much as $2,500.

I did not add in a tuner yet. I would go with the TU-717 at $150-200 and the TU-919 at $500. They rank 24th and 4th respectively in the fmtunerinfo.com shootout.

This post has been edited by socal sam on March 03, 2009 08:49 am

I build my systems opportunistically... when something I know is a great deal comes along (and I have the cash) I buy it but this is always hit and miss, done usually with the hopes of upgrade potential down the road somewhere if I'm not happy with the original purchase.

I am sure the products you listed are great but I doubt their availability. None of them are currently for sale in Seattle CL so I guess if we are going to pose a system around vintage equipment then I think it only fair that we accept the extra challenge of using items that can be purchased today, say from audiogon or even ebay, or of course a reputable used dealer too (Hawthorne in Seattle comes to mind).

The other alternative is buying new?

So lets add an extra condition... You have $4000 to spend on everything, including wires and IC, and everything must be purchased in one day. Saving some cash for an upgrade path in the future, when something *might* be available, is ok too, but you need to put together a working system first.

This post has been edited by Oktyabr on March 03, 2009 10:04 am

You really are making things tough. No problem, here goes...

So you have to buy in one day. The models and prices I mentioned are ebay market rates. It might take a few weeks to find all of them but they are relatively common.

True, I am opportunistic (cheap) and will not turn down deals, whether the item is "audiophile" or not. Eventually, I find the models I like but it takes time and lotsa luck. I found all the models I listed for significantly less than market but it took FOREVER.

New stuff is a different animal. IMO, you have to spend far more than your $4,000 budget to get what I have now. I go into to my local audio stores every once in a while to compare with my main system. I've heard some frighteningly expensive speakers that sounded worse than my NS-1000M's. Plus, you eat the steep depreciation the second you buy new.

This post has been edited by socal sam on March 03, 2009 10:35 am